Amidst the turmoil of insecurity, hardship, and questionable governance, Senator Shehu Sani, a native of the state and a prominent lawmaker of the 8th National Assembly, shared his insights with Pulse senior reporter, Segun Adeyemi. He delved into El-Rufai's leadership style, the plight of the people of Southern Kaduna, the economic drought of the state, and the relentless killings that happened during his administration.

The lawmaker also revealed the story behind the controversial $350 million allegedly sourced from the World Bank through fraud.

In this interview, Sani assessed the performance of President Bola Tinubu and his predecessor, Muhammadu Buhari as well as his political ambition ahead of 2027 polls.

Kindly run us through what you have been up to lately.

Well, I am a typical Nigerian. I am with my family and watching events in the country. That's all.

Talking about watching events in the country, you tweet a lot, and I've been following you for the past three years on Twitter. I just wanted to know, when did you develop that savviness for social media?

I come from a media family because my father was in the media industry. With the advent of social media and information technology, social media has become the most potent platform that provides the opportunity for citizens to express their opinion and also hold their governments to account. So as far as I'm concerned, I believe that is a tool for good governance, but it can also be abused.

Some people are on social media to get information. Some people are there to be informed. Some people are there to send missiles to others. Some people are there to spy on other people. So my own style, particularly on Twitter is how can I use that tool to either send a message or tell the truth to power in a manner that everyone will be happy.

I sort of soften certain messages that are serious using comical text that will make them more interesting for readers without anger. So that is how I developed this style. How do I tell the president that the naira is not floating? Rather than condemning the president that his economic policies are not working, I can simply say it appears the naira needs life support or it needs a lifeboat, something that will keep it afloat.

I do it in such a way that it also gets the interest of the younger generation who are mostly in the social media space. So I don't believe that social media space is a place where people should always be angry with everyone, but it appears it is toxic.

When I was in the National Assembly, even till today, you find out that 90% of people holding political offices are not on social media. They have handles, but they are not the ones running the handles. It's not what was simply posted about them that is the problem, but the comments that come under it. You can post about the weather and someone can insult you. You can post about a rock and somebody can insult you.

You can post about the sky and somebody can insult you. The anonymity of social media covers those who are posting. So I believe my approach attracts attention because it's different.

Everyone can go on social media to insult, attack, criticize, and raise issues angrily. But what I do is to dilute it in a way that people will laugh and joke about it.

Talking about social media and government, what's your take on Femi Gbajabiamila's involvement in the Beta Edu saga?

Let me tell you the history of these things. Social media has become the police, the people's police. Yes. It has also become the people's parliament. It has also become the people's army.

It is the medium from which government can be brought down and also the medium from which government can be held back up. People can create stories that never existed, post, and share them. And then the reputation and integrity of someone can be damaged by that. So, there were attempts to regulate social media.

In the 8th Senate, Bala Ibn Na’allah tried to bring out a bill to regulate social media. We shut it down. In the 9th Senate, Senator Aliyu Sabi Abdullahi and Senator Sani Musa, all from Niger State, tried to bring out some laws that would control social media and it was brought down. Sometimes, I think the former Minister of Information, Lai Mohammed raised issues around social media and now, it has come to the fore under this administration.

But you see, it's like destroying the ladder that took you up. In Nigeria's political history and political space since 2014, social media was used by the APC, our party to bring down Jonathan's government. But after that, it became impossible for those who were in a position now in power to tolerate the same poison they fed others with. So that is why the discomfort now.

This shows the hypocrisy in the lives of the people in the position of authority. They used it to achieve their aim and now, they are afraid of it. I don't think they want to regulate social media because of fake news. People in power want to regulate the media to protect themselves from criticism.

In the last 10 years, I've seen cases where people were arrested for posting messages either on Facebook, Twitter, or on Instagram. So our own issues are that there are already laws that exist in the country. For example, if you say anything defamatory against me, there is a law to which you can be held to account, and be prosecuted for that. But if we now go to the extent of crafting laws that will incapacitate and emasculate the freedom of speech because social media is casting light on governance and people in power, then, I think we are doing a disservice to democracy.

So, when the case of Beta Edu came, I heard a lot. And I was surprised by Gbaja because he has been a progressive, one who has always defended the rights of people to express themselves. But people never knew that the social media that you oppose when you're in government, by the time you're out of government, maybe you're a last resort of defense. Because when you have power, you can protect yourself and you can use it against others. But when you're out of power, you'll be vulnerable and you'll be at the mercy of those in power. And that is when the rise of freedom of speech and social media will come to a defense when your rights are being breached. So people should not destroy the ladder that took them to the position of authority and power.

Let's talk about President Bola Tinubu’s political appointments. Some people believe the president is making the same mistakes as Buhari in terms of appointment. For example, the Minister of Defense, Bello Matawalle, has tons and tons of cases with the EFCC, what's your take on this?

Well, I thought you were going to talk about the allegations of Tinubu appointing his own kingsmen into office. Well, I think we can put it in general terms. Yeah. You see, ideally, the people that are supposed to man political positions are people of confidence. If you are going to man transport, you will have experience in transport. If you are going to man agriculture, you will have experience in agriculture.

But when you find yourself in a political terrain and you have to share in the shared positions, the first thing is, who are those that supported me to be in office? So you may have a competent person who never supported you, and you may have an incompetent person who nearly lost his life for you. So the questions are before you. One is that it's like having two ladies and you have the choice to marry. One is ugly, but she's true for you at the time when you don't have anything. And the other one is beautiful and presentable, but she was not in support of you when people were against you. So you have to choose which one to marry.

So when you find yourself in a political terrain, that is a dilemma you're going to have. If you're going to appoint a minister from Sokoto, you will consult with stakeholders in Sokoto. The stakeholders are not going to give you the name of a professor from a university who is an international organization. They are not going to give you the name of a doctor or a lawyer. They will give you the name of the person who coordinated your campaign, who was part of your campaign, who supported your campaign, or who funded your campaign. So that is the problem.

It's when you are in politics, you're able to understand this. So if he has to go to Jigawa and say, send the name of a minister, and they send the name of a Badaru, who coordinated the success of his election, he'll have to accept it. But if you're a leader who is desirous of progress and wants to change things, you'll have to balance your political interests with the greater interests of the country. And that is why you have to bring in competent people.

For the likes of Matawalle, there could be allegations against him but when you look at it, Tunubu won Zamfara State, but Matawalle lost the governorship. So if, as a leader in that state, he lost his position and delivered for Tinubu, what would Tinubu do? He is a human being, so what do you think he should do? This is the dilemma that you have in political office. However, I believe a parliamentary system couldn't have been that complicated. So let's go to the issue of power. There are also conversations about competence.

What is a banker doing in the position of minister of power? I want you to dissect this conversation because as it stands, many Nigerians think he's not performing.

You see, the issue of power is one great challenge that has continued to torment our lives as a people and as a country. Any government that addresses power issues will be seen as one of the governments that have succeeded in our lives because power is the live wire of the economy.

Successive governments have failed to address the problems of power. How can South Africa be generating over 40,000 kilowatts of electricity? And we are here, floating between 8,000 to 9,000. A nation of 225 million people. So, I believe the minister would have done better in the areas of finance if he had been appointed as a minister of finance.

But he is simply learning on the job and a nation that wants an immediate solution and a direct approach to solving problems can't afford to wait. There are many things in Nigeria today that politics has seriously affected. For example, you have Nnaji of Abia State, a man who is well-experienced in matters of electricity but you can't make him a minister of power because he is not an APC member.

You also have someone like Kanu Nwankwo or JJ Okocha, you cannot make them minister of sports because they were not one of those who campaigned. Even if they did campaign, they were not top figures in the hierarchy of the campaign.

So, politics does a lot of damage. As far as the power minister is concerned, he has erred and he has apologised and I think Nigerians will forgive him. But that ministry needs a serious man with experience who will free Nigeria from the problems we are facing. How do we explore solar energy? How do we restore, and reactivate the Mambila power? Niger State has about five hydroelectricity dams. They have it in Gurara, they have it in Jeba, they have it in Mokwa, they have it in Shiroro. They have all those things there.

And there is still no light there.

Yes, and there is no light in Niger State. So when you put all these things into consideration, you come to the realisation that we actually need an experienced man to manage that. But we should forgive him because he must have acted out of inexperience. Nigeria is facing a serious power crisis and we need a minister who will be able to address that problem.

Let's go back to governance. Whenever Nigerians discuss bad governance, the president always gets the blame. Some people will ask, what about state governors? Do you think the president should be blamed solely for misgovernance?

We concentrate so much on what happens at the federal level. Many of our young people in the social media space, you hardly see them talk about their councilors, their local government chairmen, their members of the state house of assemblies, and their governors. They're only concentrating on what happens in Abuja and that gives space for a lot of abuse with governance and corruption at the local level.

We need to know we are a federation. If Nigeria earns ₦10,000, half of it goes to the federal government, a quarter of it goes to the state, and a quarter goes to the local government. So we all should take the blame according to the quota of our resources.

Many of these states have been crippled because of lack of a monitoring system. Governors are emperors, and whatever they want to get, they get it from their state house of assemblies. Just like what happened in Kaduna State. At the time, I was the only one fighting. I've suffered a lot of persecution especially when it comes to the issue of this $350 million loan. It will interest Nigerians to know that that loan was sourced through fraud in the sense that the 8th National Assembly did not approve of that loan.

We have refused to approve it since 2018 but to our surprise, a month after we left office, money started dropping into the coffers of the Kaduna State Government, which shows that there was a deal between the Ministry of Finance and the World Bank and they were simply waiting for us to leave office. So, Kaduna State's $350 million loan was fraudulently obtained from the World Bank because the process by which the money should be sourced was not followed.

Because of that loan, I was vilified in Kaduna State. This is a governor who openly called on the people of Kaduna State to attack me and my colleagues in the Senate because we refused to allow them to collect money from the World Bank.

So you can see, if people like us don't stand up to dictatorship at the state level, nobody is going to do that. It’s not simply about the federal government, it’s about what your state does with the money allocated to it.

Does that mean you’re supporting the probe on El-Rufai’s government?

Well, it’s not about support, it is now that they are joining. They are the ones supporting my position which I have taken when they were on the other side of evil.

Talking about being on the other side of evil, is it true that there’s an ongoing feud between El-Rufai and his successor?

Well, I don’t know, and it is in the public space. One thing I know very well is that Nasir El-Rufai doesn't know who Uba Sani is and he claimed to have been with him for 20 years but he doesn’t know him. I can stand my ground on that. I don’t think there’s anybody in that state who knows him more than I do and there’s nobody in the state that knows me more than he does.

I never doubted that a day like this would come. I never! Nothing I have prophesied and predicted about Kaduna State that has never come to pass. It’s the state my parents were born, it’s the state I was born, it’s the state I come from and it’s the state where I live with my family. So, I don’t know anybody anywhere.

When Nasir came to contest the governorship, he didn't know anybody. We are the ones who have been on the ground and since he became a tyrant and an emperor for eight years, he fought me, insulted me, cursed me all because I disapproved of that loan. He incited people against me. Where’s he today? He’s out of power, he’s irrelevant.

You cannot bring five people today to defend Nasir El-Rufai on any media station in Kaduna. This is to show you how empty he is. He has inflicted a lot of hardship on people, he has destroyed the lives of so many people. He has misused and abused power as if there would never be an end to it. The government of Tinubu has dodged a bullet by not appointing him as a minister. He could have destroyed that government from day one.

If at all there is a restitution from El-Rufai, do you see yourself ever reconciling with him?

I don’t think so. Everyone is on his own.

What do you consider El-Rufai’s mistakes while in office as governor?

His greatest mistake is that he thought power is going to be forever and in the course of that, he ruled without mercy and human face. He crushed people, neutralized people, destroyed the lives of so many people, and made our state a laughing stock.

The government of El-Rufai destroyed the economic life of Muslims in the northern part of the state by his actions. He sold the houses belonging to our state government to people many of whom are not from our state. He sold the industries that were built since the time of Balarabe Musa to people we don’t know. He demolished the homes, shops, and the livelihoods of many people. He destroyed the civil service in the state by sacking thousands of workers. He conducted useless aptitude tests and sacked many teachers who were degree-holders. In a certain aptitude test he conducted, he determined who passed and who failed.

For the Christians in Southern Kaduna, he treated them like blacks in apartheid South Africa. They were systematically marginalized from the government and terrorists were killing them, burning their houses, inflicting hardship on them and the state government did nothing.

Southern Kaduna in the eight years of El-Rufai was a living hell. The people there were treated like slaves, like outcasts, like blacks in South Africa. And for such a man who ruled without equity and justice, he does not deserve a national position. That is why when his name was mentioned for a ministerial position, I was the first and the last person to consistently campaign against him.

The likes of El-Rufai held Buhari hostage. Do you know that Buhari lived in Kaduna State more than he lived in his state Katsina? He lived in Kaduna State for almost 45 to 50 years. Since 2003, the people of Kaduna have been voting for him. Many people were killed in Kaduna because of Buhari, many were arrested because of Buhari, many were persecuted by previous governments because of Buhari.

But I can tell you, since Buhari became the president, the ward he lived in is the same ward I lived in, he has never called for a meeting with his people who are either poor, or who don't have jobs, or who don't have admission.

These are the same people who fought for you, who suffered for you. The likes of El-Rufai prevented him from meeting with the people of Kaduna. Buhari boycotted Eid in Kaduna since he became president and went to Daura. Can you tell me any serious federal presence you have seen in Kaduna? But that is where he gave birth to all his children, that is where he lived, that’s where he retired and that is where he became the president of Nigeria in 2015. The people of Kaduna have simply suffered and have not gotten anything from him.

What are your plans for 2027? Are you eyeing the seat of your friend, Gov Uba Sani?

As far as my political future is concerned, it will be dependent on the consultations and the reach out that would happen most likely by next year. It will shape where and what I want to be.

For now, we simply pray for good health and we also pray for Allah’s protection. It’s only Allah that would decide in the end. So, as far as I'm concerned, I leave it to God to decide. But I can assure you that if I am alive and healthy, I am not retired from politics yet, I am still going to aspire for political positions, that one is for sure, but that would be determined by the consultation which I have made.